> what does any of this have to do with flower crowns?
the national embroidered dresses ("vyshivanki") are used as a symbol by those nationalists forces in Ukraine today who explicitly claim the heritage of the OUN/UPA (the organizations which intentionally performed the mentioned above genocide in order to advance the nationalist goals), and as the original comment and the article say the floral crowns are being added to that set of symbols. They look nice until you understand what they are just a beautiful facade for. Until you feel a smell of burnt flesh - in 2014 they burned alive (surrounded the building and thrown Molotov cocktails inside) 42 pro-Russian activists in Odessa - the popular "traditional" method of dealing with your opponents in Western Ukraine under the OUN/UPA. There is a popular these days Ukrainian song about a celebrated leader of UPA - Roman Shuskevich - and his forces grilling on fire and impaling alive communists and the members of NKVD (USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs who was fighting OUN/UPA left over after Red Army freed Ukraine from Nazi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JT6Ppvf-w - it isn't just imagination of the song's author, it is actually pretty correct historically. Also, in 199x the Western Ukraine nationalists fought Russians in Chechnya, and their treatment of Russian POWs is well known for the cruelty. So it is a little bit hard to appreciate the cuteness of something used a symbol for such history.
Again what does all this have to do with flower crowns and embroidered dresses? They predate the twentieth-century conflicts by hundreds of years. The shamrock is a national symbol of Ireland despite Irish nationalist atrocities throughout the years. The traditional ceremonial dress in Japan is used despite the crimes committed by the Japanese military. There is literally no society or culture in history that is blameless; why spout off about Ukrainian embroidery and floral arrangement?
Could it simply be another continuation of the centuries-long campaign to suppress Ukrainian culture?
>Again what does all this have to do with flower crowns and embroidered dresses?
ask the nationalists. It was the article and the original comment author who originally brought it up as a symbol of Ukranian nationalism. I just mentioned most notable examples of that nationalism.
>the centuries-long campaign to suppress Ukrainian culture
you obviously just don't know what you're talking about.
> you obviously just don't know what you're talking about.
I know you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some kind of crypto-genocidal symbols of pro-Fascist hate, which is one of more asinine things I've read this week. And this week involved a lot of news about Donald Trump.
>you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some kind of crypto-genocidal symbols of pro-Fascist hate
your indignation is completely misdirected. It is not me who appropriated all that stuff as symbols of Ukranian nationalistic movement. It is not me who made the Ukranian nationalistic movement a de-facto fascist movement, it is not me who committed all those atrocities and crimes in the name of it, who have been celebrating the "heroes" perpetrators of those atrocities and who have been faithfully trying to follow in the steps of those "heroes" - with the attempt at "pacification" of Russians in Donbass being a such example as recent as just 2 years ago.
Don't blame the messenger. You don't agree with that stuff being used as symbols - argue with the article or the original comment author who stated so, argue with "vyshivatniki" in Ukraine. You don't agree with the atrocities and the crimes, past and the current, or with celebrating of those "heroes" - argue with Wikipedia, historians, and leaders of the Ukraine nationalism who rules Ukraine today.
Your indignation directed at me is like indignation of a follower of the Hinduism or Buddhism (where "swastika" has been a sacred and auspicious symbol at least for couple thousand years before Hitler) at a person who would say that "swastika" is a symbol of Nazi movement and of related atrocities and hate.
>who shot down a civilian airliner using weapons borrowed from Russia
the Buk used by rebels was an Ukranian Buk captured by rebels on June 29 near Donetsk. It is well known, and the capture was in the news at least 2 weeks before the MH-17. The rest of the world is just too lazy to even check the Internet archive. Rebels were pounded from the air and they used whatever anti-aircraft weapons they could get. They used this Buk to shoot down 2 Ukranian fighters on July 16 (the shotdowns at 6 and 8 km altitude - well above MANPAD reachability - are clearly mentioned in the MH17 Dutch commission report). They shot down MH17 taking it for a military cargo plane - the two unfortunate factors played a role here 1. the MH17 was flying significantly north of the civilian corridor and thus it got into the Buk launcher's radar observation sector which was set up as to look toward typical route of Ukraine military planes approaching the rebel held territories 2. the rebels had only Buk launcher, not the complete full-functional Buk system, specifically they didn't have Buk's big radar vehicle, and the radar on the Buk launcher is limited - has shorter distance, handles only a sector of about 120 degrees, its main purpose is to track the assigned target and guide the missile to it, it isn't that suitable for identification, lacks transponder identification hardware, etc.
Ukraine didn't close the airspace for commercial airlines in the war zone even though Ukraine was using military airplanes in that war and those planes were receiving fire back from the ground. Ukraine didn't close the airspace even after loosing Buk batteries to rebels at 2 different military anti-aircraft bases. They didn't close airspace even after loosing 2 fighters on July 16 at the altitudes well above MANPAD ceiling. Why loose all these money the airlines pay for use of the corridor! The MH17 victims relatives has recently filed a case against Ukraine for that in the high court of the EU.
Russian Buk from 53-rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, from Kursk. There were many witnesses on the land, who paid attention, and shared their evidences.
>Russian Buk from 53-rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, from Kursk. There were many witnesses on the land, who paid attention, and shared their evidences.
of course there were a lot of Buk systems there, in the Rostov region right across the border from Ukraine. After all, back then Russia amassed a [potentially invasion] force of 40K with all the hardware, tanks, etc. right there on the border with Ukraine. Buk is a standard component of such a force designed to cover it on the move and on the battlefield.
The Buk system is designed as multiple vehicles system, too much for rebels to handle, and military wouldn't give just one launcher - it isn't how military works, and Buk isn't intended to be used for the tasks the rebels had. When Russia finally gave powerful anti-airctaft systems to the rebels it were single-vehicle highly automated Pantsir-S1.
The pieces of shrapnel found in MH17 clearly indicated that the missile which hit MH17 was from the first version of the Buk system. Ukraine had only the first version while Russia has moved onto the second version more than a decade before.
So why would Russia dig up old missiles and give one launcher to rebels when rebels got a bunch of that hardware themselves?
All the accounts clearly describe the movement of the rebels' Buk launcher, under its own power, not on trailer, on July 17 in the direction from Donetsk into Torez, rebels having launch there and in the afternoon getting into position 20 km north, just south-east of Debaltsevo (superposition a 120 degree sector looking straight West from that position with the Flightradar24 path of MH17 - you'll understand why MH17 got on their radar). The plane damage is consistent with the Buk missile coming from that position. Nor Dutch report, nor Russian alternative version specify correct firing position, ie. position that would match the plane damage and the Buk missile behavior and warhead explosion shrapnel distribution pattern. The Dutch report shows incorrect behavior of the missile, while the Russian is just a pure fantasy.
“there were a lot of Buk systems there” the exact machine has been identified and tracked.
“Russia amassed a [potentially invasion] force of 40K with all the hardware, tanks, etc.” Some of those forces have actually invaded Ukraine.
For example, here’s international correspondents directly witnessed one small episode of the invasion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/110...
“too much for rebels to handle” there’re little to no rebels. But there’re lots of Russian military personnel.
“Russia has moved onto the second version more than a decade before” — true, they have a newer version developed. They did not however scrapped the older ones. Here you’ll find multiple recent photos of the older Buk-M1 complex with older 9M38-series missiles still on active service in Russian military forces: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/06/03/evi...
“regiment A-1402 in Donetsk” there was only one Buk there, and it was broken beyond repair.
“why would Russia dig up old missiles” — no need to dig up anything, the older missiles are on active service.
“when rebels got a bunch of that hardware themselves?” In this war, Russians frequently use this tactic to hide their invasion. They capture (or claim to capture) one instance of military hardware from Ukraine, smuggle extra copies of the equipment to Ukraine, and claim “rebels” are using the hardware they captured. They already played that trick earlier with e.g. 2S9 Nona mortar.
>“regiment A-1402 in Donetsk” there was only one Buk there, and it was broken beyond repair.
nobody said that back then. What was said by Ukraine ATO representative according to Ukraine newspaper http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/06/29/7030482/ is that the captured launcher vehicle wasn't in working condition, and answering question "Can the rebels repair it?" he said "I don't think they would need it" (my understanding of that short phrase is that the "need" he meant is the need for the launcher at all)
you're right about M1 missiles availability - i never paid much attention to it as i haven't bought into the whole idea of Russia sending that one BUK. I'm not even sure why such an emphasis on it - for example I still remember my frustration with Russia that they'd allow the rebels to be pounded from the air and wouldn't send them capable anti-aircraft weapons (it didn't even cross my mind back then that civilians would still be allowed to fly over the war zone especially given the use of military aviation - i mean that would be beyond stupid, wouldn't it? yet here we're...)
Anyway, giving the state of shock the catastrophe put everybody into and its huge political ramifications, no evidence produced after the catastrophe can be trusted without good cross-check verification. Everybody was lying, altering and producing fake evidence after the catastrophe. There is no need to even try to discuss Russian "photos" of Ukranian SU-25 shooting MH-17 with something looking like Star Wars laser canon. The rebels deleted tweets and posts made in the half-hour after MH17 where they were celebrating shooting down of another Ukraine military cargo plane. On the other side things weren't much better. Immediately after MH17 went down, Ukraine government produced that famous wiretap of cell phone conversation between a leader of rebels and his Moscow handler where the rebel reported about discovery that the shot down plane was a civilian plane and that the plane was shot down by the "cossaks from Chernuhino roadblock". Chernuhino is 70km+ from the firing position specified in the Dutch report. So either Dutch are lying (why would they?) or the Ukraine government falsified the evidence. For the couple weeks before July 17 Ukraine was deploying the Buks all around the warzone - the on duty systems were reported on Ukranian state TV with the military leaders of the Ukranian "Anti-Terrorist Operation" talking in front of them, and the Ukranian journalists published photos of deployed Buks from the ATO zone, not counting multiple pre-July 17 social posts related to those deployment. Well, next day after MH17, on July 18, Ukraine clearly stated that no Buks were deployed before July 17 in the ATO zone, only MANPADs.
So, the only evidence that can reasonably be taken into account is the one that was published before the downing of MH17 (i don't know about any evidence published after the shot down that has been cross-verified).
So, this is what we have as evidence from the pre-MH17:
1. At least 2 Ukranian bases with Buks - the bases A1402 and A0194 of the 156th anti-aircraft regiment were captured by rebels before July 17. At least one launcher, on A1402, fell into the rebels hands. My comment here: military hardware is repaired by replacing modules. Ie. it is pretty easy - go to the storage, pick the module and replace. Engine, etc. is easy too. Definitely repairs could have been carried out between June 29 (the capture, actually June 27/28) and the July 16 when the Ukranian SU-25 was shot down between 6 and 8 km altitude near Amvrosievka.
2. A Buk launcher on low-ride trailer was seen around 9am July 17 in Donetsk. It was accompanied by gray RAV4, Russian made SUV and mini-van. Those cars were seen in a convoy of several tanks, etc. on July 15/16 that was going to and coming into Donetsk from direction of Enakievo, and the convoy may have been from Russia. That convoy didn't had Buk. My comment: bellingcat considers that it is the evidence that Buk came from Russia, ie. it was going separately from that convoy. I think it is completely opposite - you wouldn't let your extremely important asset to separate from convoy, especially on the road that was close to and contested at times with Ukranian forces. The cars - SUVs and minivan may have been carrying related rebel commanders/coordinators and the crew for the Buk. There is no evidence connecting that Buk in anyway to all those Russian Buks across the border.
3. MH17 was shot down by Buk from a position, according to the Dutch report, south of the road between Torez and Snezhnoe.
That is basically all the evidence that is known. All the rest of the stuff - given for example how fast Ukraine produced the [falsified if you believe Dutch findings] wiretap which i listened to on California morning of July 17 - could have been easily falsified.
> So either Dutch are lying (why would they?) or the Ukraine government falsified the evidence.
Just because the terrorists lied, mistaken, or used a cryptonym in their phone conversation does not mean Dutch lied or Ukrainians tampered with the evidence.
Coming from an obvious sympathizer to Putin's Russia, calling the current Ukrainian leadership fascists is like the pot calling the daffodil black. Svoboda is the closest thing to a far-right party in Ukraine and it has but a handful of seats.
You're bringing up Ukrainian atrocities against Poles 70 years ago in a thread about crowns made of flowers and trying to somehow draw a line to current Ukrainian politics and conflict. It's basically straight from the Russian state media propaganda handbook.
again, it wasn't me who brought the current Ukrainian politics and conflict in the thread about crowns made of flowers - read the article and the original top comment in the thread. It is not my fault that the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies.
And Wikipedia isn't Russian propaganda, well at least i hope so.
> the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies.
This is propaganda pure and simple. There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up. You are either a troll from Olgino or have been taken in by their garbage.
>There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up.
that is one big lie. Until of course you're trying to say that awarding the highest official national title of "Hero" to, building monuments to and naming streets after a person doesn't mean the celebration of the mass atrocities systematically committed by and under command of that person. Imagine how stupid that argument would sound if say Munich would have decided to have a Hitler-strasse today just to celebrate the great autobahn network construction performed by Hitler.
"We had to write ‘ordinary posts’, about making cakes or music tracks we liked, but then every now and then throw in a political post about how the Kiev government is fascist, or that sort of thing."
you're right. Bandera committed genocide of 100K Jews and Poles while Hitler - 10M+ of Jews and Slavic people, so speaking mathematically Bandera is equivalent to "small Hitler" and the Kiev regime celebrating Bandera and claiming its heritage are the "small fascists".
Bandera personally did no such thing and ordered no such thing. Harry Truman personally killed more Japanese people with two bombs than whatever you are falsely attributing to Bandera personally here. Why not criticize apple pie and barbecue because of its association with America and hence with such genocide? It makes as much sense as commenting on Ukrainian flower crowns.
I think your comments here have spoken for themselves. Go find somewhere else to troll for pay.
I said "typical", not everyone. But guess you have a point, even if not in the way you intended. Any other reaction is so unusual these days that a generalization is unavoidable.
Any retort on any sensitive topic can be argued as fanning the flames of hate, as disagreement clearly not going to pacify anyone. The problem with is, if you don't express your dissent, hold yourself "above all that", bite your tongue, you let them run their narrative unchallenged.
Being from Belarus I used to have plenty acquaintances and relatives in Russia; perhaps three of them did not succumb to self-righteous jingoism and hate in the last couple years. I admire the few people there who have strength and stamina to remain sane. But they are not any more representative of Russia now than few sane Germans were of Germany in 1939.
>It sounds like a mix of 1930-40ies (mass murders in northern Europe) and late 1960-90ies (skinheads).
it is the same continuing fight of Western Ukraine nationalists for the expansion of their territory. In 2014 it were volunteer battalions from Western Ukraine that rushed across the country to "pacify" the Eastern Ukraine Russians. Only this time it weren't helpless Poles, and the Russian tank battalions tore those "pacifiers" a new one near Illovaysk.
No. Until now it was just one of the many atrocities in Eastern Europe for me. I am sorry for that, I know Eastern Europe has suffered an awful lot but I don't know the exact details.
Then again, like I asked yesterday: what does it have to do with skinheads?
