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A lot of people think that laws and ethics are interchangeable. If something's illegal, it must be wrong; otherwise, it must be right.

Laws don't define ethics. They're only an implementation of justice. It's up to us to decide what's right and what's wrong.



I once had a very senior manager tell me "No, it's fine, we consulted with legal and they said it was technically legal. And PR has a plan for if it comes out!" or something along those lines. I argued that it wasn't about whether it was legal, it was about whether it was moral. He just... didn't understand what I meant.

I soon found other employment. It pays less, but I sleep a lot better at night.


"Technically legal" is a pretty poor form of legal protection, anyway. Judges aren't computers; they are human beings who are free to interpret (within reason). Lots of people have wound up on the wrong side of the law because they convinced themselves that what they were doing was OK because of some technicality.


I basically said that I won't be the "rogue engineer" like at Volkswagen. If the management are willing to demonstrate that ethics aren't important, why would I imagine they wouldn't use me as a scapegoat?


That is a very good point.

At my work if you work more than 8 hours in a day, they just won't pay you for the extra. It looks bad on reports, and doesn't matter if the job must be completed by midnight you still can't work 12 hours on paper. What you have to do is split off anything you work in overtime, and put it on the next day's time sheet.

Legally, if your time sheets are inaccurate, you open yourself up for all sorts of legal action including significant fines and imprisonment, so what they've done to cover themselves here is require you to sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked. (They refuse to pay you if you don't, which in turn is illegal.)

I think I will follow your example, and find myself another job in a business that follows a basic code of ethics.


>sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked.

This is small print on timesheets anywhere I have worked. The point is that they have something that department of labor can see where employees asserted that the hours reported are correct. That's all DOL cares about if they check. It they are coercing employees to falsify time sheets DOL will have strong feelings. Record your hours independently and have those records ready for side by side comparison. After you leave for a better job, consider reporting their illegal practices so that hopefully others will no longer have to put up with it either. It does not help anybody to have a long history of lying on timesheets. ... Is this timesheet rule in writing anywhere? This would halo help a lot. Sorry I'm really interested in this. I'm a manager and I make sure my team records everything they are possibly entitled to be paid for because I'm a reasonable human being. End of rant ;)


Some people literally never develop a postconventional morality. I remember developing to that stage no later than 14 years old. It's pretty strange.

I have also noticed, dissapointingly, that some people never seem to ask themseves moral questions. I think a room full of people in suits serves as a heuristic that tells them that someone else has already asked the requisite moral questions. This is partly how you end up with a city of 100,000 expats working for the government of Saudi Arabia, etc. Imagine living there. You could probably go years without anyone ever having a discussion about morality.


In my ethics and values class, I was told that law is the lowest form of morality.


It's interesting...my father-in-law is a lawyer, and while he's a very nice guy, he has a certain mindset to look at things from the perspective of legality, rather than what's morally right or wrong.

For example, he had a hip replacement a couple of years ago and received a handicap placard so he could park in the handicapped designated parking spots. He's much better now and doesn't really need it anymore, but he keeps getting it renewed (I guess they don't really check to make sure you're still "handicapped"). Sure, it's technically legal, but there are probably truly handicapped people (in wheelchairs etc.) that could use those spots much more.


I suspect that it is actually illegal (obtaining or rather renewing the permit under false pretenses or some such), but it has a very low probability of getting caught or any consequences beyond losing the permit if he is caught.


The law can also be totally immoral.

(E.g. following a bad law like Jim Crow laws used to make profit or to exploit people etc).


The law is the implementation, it's not morality at all. Absolutely immoral things can be legal and absolutely moral things can be illegal.


What does it mean for something to be "absolutely moral" or "absolutely immoral"? What test can I perform to find out which bucket something falls into?


Depends on your value system, but something that comes to mind is Deontology. You should read about the categorical imperative. To give you a taste, “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.” – Immanuel Kant, Groundwork of Metaphysic of Morals

This, for example, suggests that lying is absolutely immoral, because if lying were universally accepted as good, we would not be able to trust each other.


Depends on your value system

It seems odd that an absolute would depend on something subjective, doesn't it?

we would not be able to trust each other.

That sounds like a pretty utilitarian concern to me, rather than a contradiction.


>It seems odd that an absolute would depend on something subjective, doesn't it?

Go deep enough and eventually everything is subjective. Even things like fundamental axioms.


Explanations.

That there exists more than one explanation for a phenomenon, like ethics and moral values, doesn't mean that choosing any of those at random yields a good explanation. It also doesn't mean that there is no valid explanation at all.

That's just lazy not-100%-sure-therefore-I-substituite-my-own-reality-ism.


It does seem odd that an absolute would depend on something subjective... existential crises ensues


Sure, if 95% (or any percentage you wish to set) agree on something, then it's probably not a moral gray area. It can't be 100% because you will always find one person to disagree, but it can be close.

For example, I would say that crossing the street on a red light when you can see that there are no cars for miles is going to be considered moral by a huge percentage of people. It will also be considered illegal in most places.


It seems odd that something can be absolutely moral one polling cycle and not absolutely moral the next polling cycle, if a whole bunch of subjective opinions change, as they have a tendency to do.


What we consider pedophilia now was considered okay in Ancient Greece. Subjective opinions do influence morality.


What you're talking about doesn't sound very absolute to me then, but relative.


Everything is relative. You might say "But murder is not allowed in any society!" but definitions of murder may vary. So in one society euthanasia might be allowed, but not in another. In one society abortion is murder, and allowed in another.

What is truly ethically absolute?


What is truly ethically absolute?

Nothing, as far as I know.


That's like saying light worked different on the time of the Greeks because they thought our eyes shoot beams. Face palm

Their understanding of the thing was different, and wrong, the thing in of it self wasn't.


I agree, the suggested test for determining if something is absolutely moral would lead to that kind of off result.

Let me ask you this: we can test theories about how light works by making predictions about how light will behave in some circumstance and then by running an experiment and checking if the prediction was correct.

If instead I have a moral theory which suggests something is absolutely moral, what prediction can I make based on that theory?


You're so sure Ancient Greeks were categorically wrong, in their behavior towards individuals modern society would consider underage?

Hmmm, something tells me that their era was profoundly different in serious ways that aren't captured in recorded evidence that is available to us.

Before you even get to social interaction among peers, simply weather, disease, medicine, wild animals and poverty were all probably profound dangers to everyone across the face of the earth.

Nevermind literacy, and writing, just imagine how many normal human beings were completely feral, or mute, or inacapable of communicating verbally, for a wide range of reasons, including growing up in isolated wilderness and simply never learning organized speech, as part of a formal language.

Anyone who might help another person by sharing food and staying warm was probably of marginal pratical use, until the next period of hard times, either because of the random of marauders or nature taking its course.

I'm pretty sure healthy people who you could hold a conversation with were in short enough supply that once familiar, everyone made quick use of any luxuries available. No books or formal education, meant bootstrapping these things as new ideas which had no generational inertia, which means probably very nearly everything for most societies was very comfortably (or not comfortably at all) based on oral traditions.

Also people fucking died. Early. Lots of people's teeth were probably gone by 25. Blindness in an eye or both was probably kind of a little bit normal by 30 for many.

So, age was probably a different thing back then. In places where misery is coming from all directions, I'll allow for degrees of moral relativism. Especially for any period pre-dating the emergent modernity of ancient Rome. Any nomadic society that can't exactly distinguish diseases from curses and witchcraft, or even weather and plagues from punishing deities, kind of gets a hall pass.


I'd say that if 95% or any majority of population agree on something, it can make something LEGAL. There are some ethical systems that prescribe universal morals regardless of however many people agree. For example, in utilitarianism, killing someone who is about to poison a water supply (thus probably killing many others) would be morally good. Deontology or absolutist moral theories prescribe that killing is always immoral.


> For example, in utilitarianism, killing someone who is about to poison a water supply (thus probably killing many others) would be morally good.

Maybe, depending on other alternatives available.

> Deontology or absolutist moral theories prescribe that killing is always immoral.

Most real deontological systems prescribe situations in which murder is justified, and self-defense and defense of others are common examples, and the broad outline ends up looking a lot like what common utilitarian approaches would yield. (There's a good argument to be made that most moral systems are rationalizations from preferred treatments of common situations and that people don't really tend to reason forward from principles, anyway, so it's not that surprising that the radically different root principles of utilitarian and deontological approaches end up with similar results, because they are mostly alternate rationalizations for those results.)


And in fact, jury nullification is the ability of a jurist to find a defendent innocent when they believe the law is wrong, even if they've determined the defendent to have violated the law.




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