This is a very nice demonstration that the sites lacks a neutral option. I think a lot of people don't care about tabs vs. spaces, as long as there is a convention and editors can be configured to respect it. Since their voice can't be heard, this results in needless polarization of the debate.

I suspect other more serious debates will suffer from the same problem.

Many issues do not have a neutral position (Is climate change real / man-made? Is there a God? Is torture ever ok? Should there be trigger warnings in education?.

If you are undecided, that's fine, don't vote or vote it a two. Voting is how you show your position in Kialo.

But we do have debates with middle ground positions or for debating multiple theses, they are called multi thesis debates. Here are examples for drug legislation (https://www.kialo.com/2027) and Game of Thrones (https://www.kialo.com/1203)

Could instead of having pro and con people write their argument for the question without putting it as pro or con. Then people can vote where they value the argument morally or for other reason on a 10 scale or something like that. Example: Issue - WiFi should be controlled fully by the WiFi alliance(something like that) Argument - WiFi use unlicensed spectrum (This could be seen both as positive and negative)

So then people vote if they think its more positive or negative by rating it from pro to con on a 10 scale. But if there are sub arguments to the arguments the voting of the sub arguments affect the value of the argument. Sub argument - non-licensed WiFi create a market for cheap electronic equipment connected to the cloud(iot). (Could also been seen as pro or con.) And so on.

Maybe bad example, but if a argument should support a thesis or not, I think is good to put in the hands of the peolpe with their values instead by the writer of the argument. And as all is not is not black and white a 10 scale (something similar)could make it more colourful and maybe more accurate to what people think.

Tabs vs. Spaces could be similarly be viewed as a multi-thesis debate; "Tabs" and "Spaces", and arguments for and against each.

This is more neutral than the current "Tabs are better than Spaces", since the negation of that statement is "Tabs are not better than Spaces", rather than "Spaces are better than Tabs."

When the initial question is skewed, the rest of the discussion becomes skewed.

You could, but then you would just end up linking the pros of Tabs as cons to Spaces, which is kind of redundant.

In the end, this is a simple, doing X is better than doing Y.

Using multiple theses generally only makes sense if they are "unrelated" (and not competing) or if you have more than two options.

Having multiple theses risks but does not necessitate more redundancy.

Yes, there are multiple points where an argument might occur. This risk occurs for all multi-thesis debates. Perhaps a DAG is more suited than a tree.

An example of the bias of having "X is better than Y" as the claim:

Claim: Tabs are better than Spaces.

Con: IDEs will handle spaces transparently and as effortlessly as if they were tabs.

Sub-con: This is not a "con" of tabs.

https://www.kialo.com/tabs-vs-spaces-16646/16646.0=16646.1-1...

This demonstrates that arguments for spaces are confused with arguments against tabs.

So good arguments to spaces will always occur as counter-arguments to tabs, not as positively phrased arguments to use spaces.

More obviously, arguments for spaces will appear red and disproving.

If you don't call that a bias, try starting a thread called "Kialo is a biased and simplistic platform." and see the effect.

My grasp on the subject of logical formalisms is a bit rusty, but I believe this bias can be expressed as a consequence of using propositional logic to simplify a world in which "tab" is not the logical opposite to "space" as true is to false. The objects you neglect to address unambiguously is:

- How do I differentiate between "Tabs are not better than spaces", "Spaces are better than tabs", and "Spaces are good"?

- How do I express that "Tabs are not better than spaces, and spaces are not better than tabs"?

- How do I express that the combination of tabs and spaces are better?

- How do I express that tabs are only good if accompanied by spaces?

- How do I express that tabs are just as good as spaces as long as they're accompanied by spaces?

Putting them in a tree that is biased at the top makes this very difficult.

The debate of the use of tabs and spaces is not able to be summarized in the one thesis "Tabs are better than spaces".

The thesis does not do a very good job of giving a collected overview of the debate. But it surely incites anger!

('This is not a "con" of tabs." is not itself a con of the argument, but a comment that the argument doesn't belong here. Ironically, the point it tries to make applies to itself.)

Also, why does the Kialo website hijack my right-click ability and my ability to copy-paste text?

You couldn't just let it go...next up emacs vs vi? :)

At least we have a >1k claims Star Wars The Last Jedi (https://www.kialo.com/7055) and Rebel alliance would defeat the United Federation (https://www.kialo.com/9394) debate already. :)

Thank you for your kind words!

Unfortunately, it doesn't allow to post formatted code.

You mean like bold, italics and different font sizes? We tried that and it made the whole reading experience much more cumbersome. What we might do is allow inline graphics attachments. The problem with those are DMCA takedowns...

For code is must also be monospaced font and allow newlines - currently, the text should be on one line.

I understand about the reading experience. But maybe then allow formatting in comments, not in the claim title?

We suggest linking to those examples, normally they are too long to fit nicely in. The same goes for graphics. We are afraid, exactly for the reason you specify, reading experience. Agreed we could do it in comments, will forward this.

How to understand "suggested Con"? Is it waiting for moderation?

It is waiting for the debate creator and their admins to accept or respond to. The suggestion is used as good faith and coherent writing ability signaling.

Normally you then get invited as a writer. That's our system to keep the trolls away, which naturally, with the topics we are dealing with, is essential. (https://support.kialo.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003791445-Sug...)

I don't want to know what e.g. the gun legislation debate would otherwise look like. It meanwhile has 2.4k unique claims and 5x that in comments. (https://www.kialo.com/3346)

Sorry for the delay. I added your con.